Episode 23

Who Is Bo Dukes

Original Air Date    07.17.2017

In This Episode

Exploring the details of Bo Dukes’ mysterious conversation with a stranger.

“The question is, when did the latex glove become public knowledge?” - Payne Lindsey

People in this Episode

Dr. Maurice Godwin
Private forensic detective who investigated Tara’s disappearance, beginning in 2006. He investigated her home and firmly believed there were signs of foul play.

Dr. Maurice Godwin

Private Forensic Detective

Bo Dukes
Eight days after the arrest of Ryan Alexander Duke, Bo Dukes pleaded guilty to concealing the death of another, tampering with evidence, and hindering the punishment of a criminal. Dukes was in the same class as Ryan Duke at Irwin County High School.

Bo Dukes

Arrested Accomplice

Evidence in this Episode

Latex Glove

Latex Glove

“I was protecting my friend and myself. Yes, it was wrong and I knew that then.” - Bo Dukes


Payne Lindsey: Hey, guys. Before we get started today, I wanted to remind you that there's only one more episode left, and Up and Vanished Season One will come to an end with Episode 24 on Monday, July 31st. It's been a truly amazing journey, to say the least. I've talked to countless people in connection to Tara Grinstead's case, and I've built close relationships with people that will last a lifetime.

I had no idea what to expect going into this, but the results we've achieved together have blown me away. I want to thank you as listeners for all your support and positivity throughout all this. And I want to thank all those who are close to Tara who found the courage to speak out on this podcast and to shine some light on the truth in hopes that one day we would all finally know what happened to her. And though Season One will come to an end soon, we will never back down from seeking the truth. And in the event of a trial in this case, we will be covering it with new episodes.

Intro: More than 40 GBI agents swarmed at the Pecan Orchard in Ben Hill County this afternoon.

Not one, but two former students from that school under arrest.

With the intent to, and did cause serious bodily harm to the person of Tara Grinstead.

Charging Ryan Alexander Duke with the murder of Tara Grinstead.

Payne Lindsey: From Tenderfoot TV and Industrious Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished, the investigation of Tara Grinstead. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey.

In today's episode, we're going to further analyze the Twitter conversation between Bo Dukes and a woman I'm calling Sally. Before we dive in, if you haven't listened to last week's Case Evidence episode, you need to. We'll be referencing several important statements to Bo Dukes made during this online communication. After receiving this transcript, I went through it line by line. Bo divulged a lot of detail, but how much of what he said are we to believe as truth? And how does Bo Dukes' statements here align with all the other stories we've heard? From his girlfriend Brooke? Does it all match up?

I spoke at length about this with a renowned psychologist from Australia, named Dr. Thomason. She gave me her take on it all.

Dr. Thomason: Part of my background is I've worked in the jails. I've worked in a forensic unit in a psychiatric hospital in the States. I've also worked in the regular jails here back in Australia. It's certainly not uncommon for women to find men prison, or with a criminal history, incredibly interesting. Well women, I think, in general see potential in men and they sort of think, well, if I really love you and I look after you, I can get you out of this hole. Or, I can help, you know, mend that broken wing. So, it's not uncommon for women to strike up friendships with men who are in jail or have been in jail, as I'm sure you would know. So I sort of detected some of that flavor there because it certainly was very flourish-y a lot of the time. I also thought, although she alluded to medical training and talking about patients, I thought I don't really think she's a professional interviewer of any kind. Like she didn't strike me as a counseling type because she was very eager to talk about herself. I would have expected someone who had that sort of interviewing type background would have drawn him out more, or tried to, but probably not injected nearly as much of themselves in that conversation.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Bo Dukes voice actor: Anyone who has something to lose is crucifying me. It's okay. Everyone wants to know why. Even me. She deserved at least someone to watch. I'm just glad it can be over for, for everyone.

Dr. Thomason: Well, when he says things like well, of course, everyone wants to know what happened, even me. It's kind of like saying yeah, wow! This is really amazing, isn't it. I'm so confused about this. I really want to know the answer. Sort of as though, like everyone else, I don't know the answer. Gosh! What could it be? So, he's kind of subtly implying he's on the outside looking in as well and is confused as the rest of us.

Payne Lindsey: That's interesting.

Dr. Thomason: You know, I keep asking why he's putting himself across as a, well, of course, I'm one of the reasonable people in all of this. I keep asking why. Or when he says, "I'm glad it can be over for everyone." How generous of him to say that. And then when he says, "I'm so afraid of someone being arrested who is not responsible." You know, these are all very reasonable things to say, that normal, reasonable, caring, concerned citizens would say. And then he says things like, "she deserved someone to watch while she was burning." So, it's all subtly implying no, he's just a normal person like the rest of us, very concerned about all this.

Payne Lindsey: Is that somebody who is putting that out there to make their image look better to the public, knowing that they are not that good person? Or is that him convincing himself that he's a better person?

Dr. Thomason: Mmmm. Good question. I don't know enough about him to be able to answer that. But it's certainly a distancing technique.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: Because, if you hear yourself saying these things often enough, you brainwash yourself into sort of believing it. Like, you know, lots of guys in jail really believe that they didn't ... well, some guys in jail, really believe they didn't exactly do what they're accused of doing. It's because they've rethought it so many times, and they've talked about it. You know, one of the problems with the legal system is if you're going to say, plead not guilty to something that you know you've done, you have to say over and over and over "I wasn't there. I don't know," etc., etc., and after a while you almost believe it.

Payne Lindsey: Yeah.

Dr. Thomason: If you get a speeding ticket, or failing to go, stop at a stop sign, and you replay it in your mind, after a while you can really very easily convince yourself that you, well, you didn't stop for a long time, but you did kind of pause. Now, that's like stopping.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: So, I think that's part of what's probably almost anyone would do, but he is doing it quite a lot. He's putting himself across as the concerned citizen. I think that puts him as a more reasonable person. In his mind, he is another one of the reasonable people observing this situation, not a player in this.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: Not responsible. And I thought the final touch of 'he just remembered yesterday' he said the Lord's Prayer over her, I thought that was masterful, because my impression is it's probably a religious town. That also makes him part of the religious community.

Payne Lindsey: Exactly.

Dr. Thomason: The first thing I would say about Bo is, we know he tells lies. He's been convicted of fraud in the past, so that is about dissembling and lying.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: So, we already know he's a person who tells lies. In that case, what I have learned in my work is if you're dealing with someone that you know repeatedly tells lies, you actually can't afford to believe anything that they say, at all, because you don't know when they're lying. But, what we generally do is we think we're smart and we pick and choose what we believe, and we go 'well, I know this guy tends to tell lies, so that possibly isn't true. But, well, he said such and such, oh, okay, I'll go off and explore that.' My philosophy with someone like this is, you actually cannot believe anything they say, unless you independently verify it. So, everything that he's said here, the reason I came up with sayings rather than comments on each individual thing, is because we really can't believe any of the individual things he says. We're limited in how much analysis we can do until we actually find out, well, how can we prove some of these things? And many of them, of course, we can't.

Payne Lindsey: Yep.

Dr. Thomason: It's just too safer. So, the second one was, you know, he's played this up, this loyalty to Ryan, and his sense of himself as a person who is loyal is just, you know, 'this is who I am.' This is what he promotes.

Bo Dukes voice actor: I was protecting my friend and myself. You use my truck. You put her on my family's land. Well, he was my best friend. Yes, it was wrong and I knew that then. We were friends, but I coulda beat his ass physically any day.

Dr. Thomason: Now, it's interesting that loyalty to Ryan has apparently come to a screaming halt, because, from what we think we know, he was the one who dogged Ryan in. So, his loyalty only lasted a finite amount of time. He talked about protecting his friend, his best friend, supporting his friend. I knew it was wrong, and I knew it then, but ... and just by saying 'but,' it's kind of like when you put a but to excuse burning someone's body, that's a really big but. Isn't it? It's kind of like, okay, what could possibly follow that 'but' that would justify what you did? And, it's kind of like, well, you know, loyal to his friend and then he tried to bolster it by saying you know, he could implicate me, and it sounds really, just really lame what he said. Well, yes, but highly unlikely. But then he sort of implied that he was scared of Ryan. But then, at the end of the Twitter conversation he was boasting about how he wasn't scared of Ryan, and he could whip his ass, or whatever he said, any day.

So he's playing the loyalty card, but the loyalty doesn't seem to extend very far, certainly not infinite. And also, when we look at other kinds of loyalty, well, he wasn't very loyal to the Army. He defrauded them. And his loyalty to Brooke is interesting, because he hopes that the relationship with Brooke will survive while he is having flirty conversations with a woman on Twitter. And then he acknowledges he's been unfaithful, then uses 'but' again. But she was aware of it, so that kinda makes it all right.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: Because, you know, if she knew about it, well, you know how these things are. Apparently his loyalty only extends to male friends, not to his partner, certainly not to his family. You know, my uncle did this, my uncle did that. You know, he's controlling the family fortune, etc. I don't care about them. They can get stuffed. He's very selective in his loyalty.

I don't have enough to say he's a psychopath. When I first contacted you, that was sort of just my theory. Because when I was hearing about what happened with Tara and what we've found to learn about what happened with her body, and you were talking about Ryan, I was saying to myself, "So where's the psychopath?"  Who's the psychopath in this? And then, of course, Bo comes along and I thought well, he's sounding like a bit of a candidate there. But, the way I talk to my clients, I don't generally talk about psychopaths to them, but there are lots of women who are in abusive relationships. I often talk about bullies or abusers. I say to them that there are two important things to know about bullies and abusers, and the first is, as far as a bully is concerned, people are like furniture. You simply move them around to suit your purpose.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: And if you've gotten a particular purpose for someone, well you just put them in the shed until you need them again. And then you pull them out when you need them, us them, put them back again. So, for most of us, that's really hard to come to terms with because most of use couldn't imagine treating people like that. The second thing I tell them is that, in terms of communications, of course there's a huge amount of trust between two people talking to each other. I trust that the other person pretty much is telling me the truth, as they know it. And I hope that they trust I'm telling them the truth, as I know it or to the best of my ability. But with a bully or an abuser or a psychopath, words are kind of like a smorgasbord laid out in front of them and they simply choose the words that suit them for that particular purpose.

Payne Lindsey: Mmmm.

Dr. Thomason: To achieve the effect that they want to achieve, absolutely right now, with that person. If circumstances change, literally in five minutes, they will say something completely different because they've chosen differently from the smorgasbord. If you try and call them on it, well, firstly their attitude is "well, that was then, this is now."

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: And, secondly, well 'I never said that." Thirdly, 'you're always confused.' And then fourthly, they do a sort of a 180 spin on you and they say 'you're criticizing me about that? What about that thing you did?'

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: So, they're very good at completely changing the focus.

Payne Lindsey: Yeah. A prime example would be when Bo says that he was initially scared of Ryan and afraid that Ryan was gonna pin it on him. But, then at the end of the conversation, he tells Sally that he would whoop Ryan's ass and he was not scared of Ryan at all.

Dr. Thomason: Mmmm. Yes.

Payne Lindsey: Two different points in time, two different parts of the conversation, both statements fitting -

Dr. Thomason: The circumstances at the time. The intention that he wanted to give.

Payne Lindsey: Yeah.

Dr. Thomason: So one was big noting himself, not scared of Ryan. And the other was, well, what could I do? Justifying his action.

Payne Lindsey: Yep. Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Thomason: And he would see no contradiction in those whatsoever.

Manipulators don't see what they do as lying, for several reasons. Firstly, because everyone does it. Secondly, well, you're criticizing me, you're just being picky, nit-picky. C'mon.

Payne Lindsey: Yep.

Dr. Thomason: So there's always a come-back. No matter what you do, you can never catch a manipulator out in a lie because they are so good at quickly dissembling and coming up with another lie that the average person simply can't keep up.

Payne Lindsey: Yep.

Dr. Thomason: And then as quickly as they can, they flip it around and they put the focus back on you. So you're then backtracking and defending yourself. And you don't realize that, in fact, you're no longer talking about the issue that you raised, you're talking about the issue, the counter-issue, that they've raised.

Payne Lindsey: Yeah.

Dr. Thomason: I just today looked at the current photos of both of them. You look at the two of them, and somewhere on the internet they're both side by side, and it's kind of, you look at each of them and you think, okay, if one is the leader here, it's obviously not Ryan, is it.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: If you look at Ryan, you go, so this guy is intimidating this other guy. Just the non-verbal signals that Bo sends, you're not messing with me. No, he's got that really hard look about him that says, you know, I'm gonna give you as good as I get. In fact, I'm gonna prove something. Whereas Ryan's got a much softer look and most people don't take good sort of mug-like shots. Ryan doesn't look too bad in his.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: Now, there's a lot to be said for the non-verbal signals that someone sends. Of course that doesn't necessarily say they're guilty or innocent, but it certainly gives you a sense of how they project to people. Most people, when having a mug shot taken, are not looking assertive, but Bo is.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly.

Bo Dukes voice actor: I confessed to many people. I don't think most of them believed me. My ex used to use it to blackmail me.

Dr. Thomason: Well, this is where I see that he is, I think subtly, but consistently introducing the idea that, you know, other people are just about as responsible because, gee, here I am confessing to people. I'm confessing all over the place. Now, I'm doing my best here to get this out to do something about what I've done. And, you know, no one picked up the ball. No one did anything about it. What's a guy to do?

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: He's cleverly reducing his responsibility by sharing it with others. So, he doesn't look nearly as bad because there are so many other bad people out there as well.

Payne Lindsey: Of course.

Dr. Thomason: He's kind of implying, what's wrong with these people?

Payne Lindsey: Right. Is that a common thing that people do when they try to justify what they've done?

Dr. Thomason: I think what he's doing is a bit more subtle, because generally when we're trying to minimize our own wrongdoings, we're tending to blame the other people that we interacted with around the wrongdoing. Well, you said this to me so then I said that. And then you looked at me sideways so I hit you, kind of thing. So, no. This is more subtle because he's referring to people who weren't even there, who didn't take part in any of this. This is far more subtle. Because it's really obvious if you say, well, Tara was rude to me and she swore at me and whatever. Well, that's the kind of minimizing that we expect. But this is much more subtle.

Payne Lindsey: Yep. Exactly.

Dr. Thomason: It's mind-boggling that no one said anything so, because people talk. I mean, I live in a smallish, country town and all you have to do is walk into a store say hello to someone and they're telling you all their business, or somebody else's business.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: So, and people, as we know, love to share a secret. I simply can't believe that no one said anything, unless there was something going on that intimidated the people who knew into saying nothing. It can't just be they didn't believe it, or they didn't want to know. Has to be more because you just don't want to have that secret yourself. You want to share it with someone so they can go, aw c'mon, that wouldn't have happened. Yeah, you're right. No [inaudible 00:24:01] place. That would be ridiculous. I can't believe, if he told lots of people, that nobody told unless there was an over, a compelling reason, you know, some kind of intimidation that made them not tel.

Bo Dukes voice actor: It's not something you think about at 21, okay? It's easy to be loyal when you don't understand how the world works.

Dr. Thomason: He was portraying himself as was someone who was kind of passive and shocked and not understanding how the world works. So, on Monday, it just didn't register. That's really hard to believe when he's been told the night before, this is what he's saying, that this is what I did, and then the next morning someone's kind of confirming it's likely that that happened. It didn't register. Now, it did register if he said I was so frightened, I was so shocked or whatever, but it didn't register. Like he didn't put two and two together? That's kind of what he's implying. No. He's just this ordinary guy, not that bright. Nope, just couldn't put those two pieces of information together.

Payne Lindsey: Yep.

Dr. Thomason: And then, of course, because his mind works kinda slow, it took him til Wednesday before, and, no, he kinda realized, and then it was really late on Wednesday, so he couldn't really do anything more about it. Because it was really late. He said I didn't want to believe it. Okay. Well, that sounds pretty normal. And then he's talking about burning the body. It's not something you think about at 21. You don't understand the way the world works. Well, you know, he's a guy who obviously has got some kind of intellectual disability or something. He's a bit slow. But, I mean, Bo would not want us to think of him as someone who's slow because he boasts about how he used to call out stupid people. He had no tolerance for them.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: And when he was talking on Twitter, he was, not in the podcast part, he was talking about how, you know, in need of intellectual stimulation and he likes smart women, he's not intimidated by them, etc., etc. So, he certainly doesn't think of himself as a stupid person. But, that's kind of what he's implying with his oh, time slowed down for me. No, it almost sounds as though, the next time I ran into Ryan, I kinda checked in with him. Which seems inconceivable for someone who's a smart, action-oriented person. So, more about he had no choice, he couldn't help himself on the message board. So, again, he's promoting this idea that, no, he's just this ordinary guy and, you know, sometimes just things happen. He just had to get on the message board and defend himself. But not or so angry, or as so upset, or I couldn't believe what people were saying. It's kind of like I couldn't help myself. No. And he couldn't help himself with helping Ryan, apparently, because he was scared of Ryan. He didn't have any choice. And then not being able to help himself, of course, happens when he's boasting sleeping with lots of women.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: He couldn't control himself. But now he's trying really hard to stop. He's minimizing, well, he's giving away responsibility at the same time he's actually boasting that he's such a great guy that he's got lots of women anyway. So then, when he says after Tara, I thought the roof would fall in anyway, sense of impending doom, and he makes you take big risks.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: So that's now just excused the fraud with the government. Why? Because this sense of impending doom that made him do it. Wasn't him. Yeah. He's happy to play the victim, but his pride won't let him do it for very long.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: He's really gotta be the hero and in control.

Payne Lindsey: Yep.

Dr. Thomason: His pride won't let him keep playing the victim for very long.

Payne Lindsey: Yep. That makes perfect sense. Which is why he said that Ryan threatened him, but his pride said, well, not really. I could beat Ryan's ass.

Dr. Thomason: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So then he blames his family for trying to protect their business, attacking him, not supporting him.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: What bad people they are, because they should be loyal to him. He's not loyal to them, but that's okay. But they should still be loyal to him. So, again, it's that double standard. I thought it was lovely when he said 'many of my actions have been for other people.' Well, first thing, what does that really mean? But he's kind of playing that sympathy card. Then when he said, 'I bet I sound like a sociopath,' that's a really clever sort of negotiation technique is that you call out the elephant in the room.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: When you're saying it to someone who's trying to, you know, this other woman, who's trying to foster a relationship with him, it's designed to get her to say 'No, not at all. I really understand.'  Which is kind of the message she was sending him. I thought it was classic when she was talking about apologizing, and he said her family don't deserve my shame. The way I interpret that, because, I mean it's kind of a difficult sentence. It's almost as though he's feeling like if he apologized to them, he would be putting a burden on them of, they would start to worry about him feeling ashamed. No, that would be added burden for them. That concern about his shame.

Payne Lindsey: To me it sounds like he's feeling sorry for himself.

Dr. Thomason: Oh, yeah! Yeah. The way he's putting it is of course they would be concerned about me.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: That's interesting. And also, that sense of shame, I noticed that was a phrase that Brooke used over and over -

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: And Bo also uses. So it sounds like a phrase that they use to each other, or he has used to her repeatedly.

Payne Lindsey: Yep. Shame.

Dr. Thomason: Yeah. So more of the victim mentality when she said 'why are lots of people saying it's you?' Ryan got sympathy for his court appearance. It's my family. They're political enemies. I'm a better story. I have a past. So, it's completely disavowing that, perhaps, it's his behavior that makes people think it's him.  It's kinda like no, it's all these other things. I'm just a victim of circumstance here.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly.

Dr. Thomason: Oh. And then he's also, not only is he fearing being threatened by Ryan, apparently he's also afraid of being threatened by his ex-wife. And that's why he played along with what she wanted for a year. Goodness knows what that actually means, other than perhaps they didn't get a divorce. But it would be really interesting to know whether he had a history of abuse toward women or partners, because that was my theory about Brooke when I first contacted you. Based on not a great deal of information, I have to say. It's just a thought because a lot of the women that I've dealt with, who were in abusive relationships, have told me that they have lied to police, they have lied to family, they will lie to almost anyone under instructions from the abuser.

Payne Lindsey: Right.

Dr. Thomason: So, it wasn't inconceivable that Brooke, under instructions from Bo, might have come on your podcast, because Bo's not gonna come on your podcast, and spun the sense of shame. Really what she was saying was, and Bo's saying this as well, you know, who amongst us when they were 21 didn't make mistakes? Hey! I made a mistake like everyone else. I was only 21. I was a kid. We've all been 21, we've all made mistakes. Kind of like this -

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: Just a bit different.

Payne Lindsey: Yeah. I didn't buy that.

Dr. Thomason: No! It's really, because he doesn't actually come and say it in a really blatant way, it just creates a sense of minimizing and mitigating what he's done. However, when he was talking about actually burning the body, that's what I found really interesting. That he watched that body burn. Now, okay, we've got this scared kid, doesn't understand how the world works, frightened of going to jail, so I got the impression he came up with the idea of burning the body, which is a really dominant behavior.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: It's not, let's hide it, let's bury it. Because generally people want it out of sight. Let's get it away. But, in fact, it was almost the opposite and he says, now again, can we believe him? Don't know, but why would you lie about this? That he actually watched that body burn. So then makes a virtue out of it, that, you know, that was out of respect for her that he watched her burn. Then he says, even her silicone implants. I just wanted to leap through my iPad and just strangle the guy when he said that.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: Because I thought, you even burned this woman's body and, even all these years later, you're still twisting the knife. I mean, what an insulting, gratuitous, horrible thing to say. It's kind of like, and let me just introduce another little thing about her that maybe nobody knew.

Payne Lindsey: Yeah.

Dr. Thomason: And let me put it out there. That is just so low.

Payne Lindsey: It's disgusting.

Dr. Thomason: Yeah. And the fact that he watched speaks to me about his psychology.

Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Thomason: Because the average person, of course, could never burn a body in the first place. But there's no way they could watch. So, that says there's a total disconnect between normal emotions that he is watching a human body, someone he actually knows, burning. For him to be able to do that, either he's done a lot of working himself up to that in terms of doing gruesome things, or really testing things, or things that helped him realize 'Hey, I felt nothing when I did that. Hmm. Let me see what else I can do that way.' It kind of sets the bar for "Gee. Nothing bothers me. If that didn't bother me, nothing bothers me. Hey! That's amazing. So let me see what else I can do."

Payne Lindsey: After going over the conversation in great detail, there were several statements that Bo made that really caught my attention. At one point, Sally asked Bo how often he talked to Ryan over the years after what had happened. Bo said they lived together for a few months and then, essentially, they ceased all communication. If Bo is telling the truth here, then he and Ryan never discussed what happened beyond the first few months of 2006. Bo also told Sally that Ryan was "into serial killer movies." He even goes on to list examples, saying "movies like Zodiac and Seven." The problem is, the movie Zodiac didn't even hit theaters until 2007, well over a year after Bo and Ryan had stopped talking. So, is that just a bold-faced lie?

Later in the conversation, Sally asked Bo about the latex glove. Bo said "I don't know about the glove. Ryan said he didn't wear any." If Ryan said he didn't wear gloves, that means that Bo asked him about wearing gloves, meaning, Bo knew to ask about it. The question is, when did the latex glove become public knowledge? Was this information public in the first couple of months after her disappearance? I called Maurice Godwin to get some clarity on this.

Do you know when exactly the GBI released the information about the latex glove?

Maurice Godwin: Yeah. Yeah, I sure do. They worked out a deal that they would do in on 48 Hours in '08.

Payne Lindsey: So, they didn't publicly announce it until 2008?

Maurice Godwin: That's right. 48 hours. They let them have access to some of the pictures and some of the stuff of that, and that's when it was announced.

Payne Lindsey: How did Bo know to ask Ryan about the glove, is the question, if he didn't know about it?

Maurice Godwin: I don't ... that's a good damn question. There must be something wrong with that glove and Ryan.

Payne Lindsey: So what's the deal? Do you see what I'm saying?

Maurice Godwin: You got a good one there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It seems like a plan, don't it? It sounds like a plan, which is, wouldn't be hard to do. Rothwell said the glove linked back to Tara. Ryan's not that smart, see? Bo's kinda not that, see? I don't know of any Tifton paper or Ocilla paper, or it was ever mentioned until after the 48 Hours of '08. That was '08.

Payne Lindsey: A few weeks ago, a man reached out to me, claiming that he had some very important information about Bo Dukes. I called him back, and he told me a story.

Source: Okay. Now, what I'm about to tell you is probably gonna ... it freaked me out. Ashley, when me and her had split up and divorced, I moved into my brother's house, which was my grandmother's home out in the country. She had started fiddling around on Tinder, dating sites, and putting her profile out there, and she ended up with this guy. They went on a couple dates. She wouldn't tell me who it was. And I didn't know the guy from Adam, you know. Anyhow, she wouldn't, me and Ashley, we used to swing when we were married. We experimented, did a lot of things, and she ended up tied up to a pecan tree in a pecan orchard. She was blindfolded. Took pictures. She showed me a picture that he took of her.

She said it was the creepiest looking thing, she got a weird feeling whenever all this was going on, but Ashley told me that he said some things to her that really creeped her out. That's why she wanted him to stop. He started creeping her out, and she asked me to help take care of it. This guy, Bo Dukes, he told her that he was gonna kill me. And he'd get away with it. He knew how. So I called Brooke, his girlfriend. Ashley told me that he couldn't just leave her, or couldn't just something or other, or Brooke had something on him, or Brooke had seen, she knew things about him or something. I said, Hey Brooke, do you know that Bo is, you know, kinda still trying to, is cheating on you and trying to see my ex-wife? She liked freaked out. We had some words.

He called me. I'm sitting in the house, my brother works at night. My friend, this was a Marine sniper, is in his room with his girlfriend, and his brother's in the living room with his girlfriend. I'm in the room and Ashley texted me at the same time, what are you doing? Why are you saying? I said you told me to take care of it and I wanted him to leave you alone. So he said, gimme your address. He said, I'll be over there. He said, I'll take care of you. She could hear Brooke screaming in the background that night. He was asking for my address and, word for word, give me that motherfucker's address. I'm gonna take this gun that's sitting in my lap and go kill his ass.

I was laying in the room, in my living room, in my grandmother's home that we had inherited, I looked up and the bay window, right there were the curtains are, there was somebody standing there. I saw person standing there. I slammed the door shut in the shadows so they couldn't see me. I backed up against the door and faced the window, and it was gone. I can't prove it was him, but it was in that timeframe.

The same pecan orchard that they showed on the news, was the same pecan orchard that he took her to, and said you could scream any no one can hear you for miles around.