Original Air Date 07.31.2017
In This Episode
Part 1 of 2: After 2 years investigating and bringing weekly updates on the disappearance of Tara Grinstead, Up and Vanished Season 1 is coming to a close. Payne Lindsey takes it back to the beginning, bringing the case full circle, and uncovers a new theory in the process.
People in this Episode
Ex-Boyfriend and Former Police Officer
Source 1: I'm from Irwin County, I went to school there. They will definitely protect their own, that's the way these people has always been. It's all a big corrupt situation. Everything that they've got going on down there the whole Sheriff's department knows what's going on. Allen Morgan never got to go in that orchard and that came from someone in the sheriff's department. When him and Nelson went to search that orchard, Nelson told him that wasn't no need for him to go in and told him to turn around and go back. Nelson went and searched by his self. Well, I mean I honestly feel like ever since they searched that orchard, they've known something. This has been going on for, every since I was a teenager. It's nothing new. I think they should definitely pay the price, every single one of them that had anything to do with it.
Source 2: That's corruption in Irwin County, man. That's what you get. I feel like there's even more people than I even would suspect that's involved in it. I'm glad that some of it's finally coming out and people are actually knowing part of the truth.
News reporter 1: Ryan, did you do it? Ryan, did you do it? Why did you murder her? How did you know Tara? Anything you want to say, Ryan?
Payne Lindsey: Why'd you kill Tara? America wants to know.
News reporter 1: Did you think you'd get away with it?
James Wilcox: I was born and raised in Ben Hill County. This is my home. Ben Hill County, to me, is a beautiful place to live. I lived in the big city, Buffalo, New York, for 40 years and I come back home after I retired. So it's just a nice place and the changes that I've seen when I was growing up to what now, is just a beautiful place to be. In 1941, December the 7th, when Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor? I was living at the 11 mile marker down the road from here. To me, it's just a beautiful place. We're such ... From right here to this road right here, the next road right there was about a half a block from here, all the way past Queensland, all the way down that 129 was just all the way down below Ocilla.
We went a lot of places. All back in this area right across here. I went to so many places I don't even remember. Each time they had a hunt, I was out there. It was kind of a shock to me because I live right here and I passed there every day, even when we was looking for her, I'd be passing right by where she was at, but you don't know. That was a shock for me, for me to be here, going on all them hunts and then she right here less than a mile from where I live at. In a way, right now, it feel good, it give me some closure, that the family finally found out what's happened after all those years. I know it's hard because I've been through it with family members myself.
The reason I was so interested in this because I have two kin people that have been killed and still no results, we're still trying to find the results now. My aunt and my sister's daughter. It's been a long time too, so that's what made me interested in this 'cause we hadn't had no closure for that. So that's why I went on this hunt.
Payne Lindsey: Did you guys ever search in that orchard that they found Tara in?
James Wilcox: No, we never searched in this orchard up here. This is the nine mile marker where I'm at. The orchard's is the eight mile marker up here, just in the next mile.
Payne Lindsey: This is James Wilcox. He's 85 years old, he was born and raised in Ben Hill County. James lives in an old house off route 129 in Fitzgerald, less than a mile from where Tara Grinstead's remains were found. Back in 2005, James felt compelled to help find Tara because he too had been the victim of an unsolved murder case in his own family. After James and I had talked for a little while in his home, he offered to drive me out to the orchard. Up until this point, I had never seen it in the daytime.
James Wilcox: Where that pecan orchard is. I'm at the nine mile marker, she was found at the eight mile. Right here, where they took her out and took her through there. That's only just a few miles from my house. Out of all the places we looked, I never would have looked here.
Payne Lindsey: James was still in disbelief that after dozens of searches for Tara, she was right here in his backyard the whole time.
You want to get out for a second?
James Wilcox: Yep, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Payne Lindsey: James drove by this pecan orchard every single day. The orchard was huge. So big that you couldn't see the end of it from the fence where I was standing. The rows of pecan trees went on for as far as you could see. By all accounts the orchard itself looks and feels unsettling, like something out of a horror movie. And paired with the thought of what had happened here a decade ago, it was genuinely unnerving.
James Wilcox: Most of the time when something happens like this, somebody know. But nobody wanted to talk or say anything. Somebody knew all along, but just wasn't nobody talking. That's the hard part about it, when people know what done happened and then they won't come forward and let nobody else know. I think if somebody went to the police and told them to search that orchard up there and then they didn't let nobody else know about it, I think that was wrong. Definitely be suspicious because if the search parties had've known, I think they would have did a better job. Now what I really heard since this has happened, some of his kinfolk was out there on the search.
Payne Lindsey: If I told you that an officer from the Irwin County Sheriff's Department who was related to Ryan Duke, went out on his own and searched that orchard, and nothing ever happened from that, what would you think about that?
James Wilcox: I think it was something very, very, confusing going on.
Payne Lindsey: Before I left, James pulled out a box of old VHS tapes. He told me that several times during the searches for Tara back in 2005, he had brought his video camera along.
James Wilcox: I did some filming directly after she was missing. It might have been two or three weeks on one tape, something like that. I filmed the search team that was from Texas and all of them.
Payne Lindsey: He pulled out a dusty old tape from the box. He powered up his VCR and then popped in the tape.
Video: We talked with her right there at that corner.
You know we talked to her about 10:00 that Saturday morning. And then Saturday night and early Sunday morning.
James Wilcox: I was filming the house and everything down there where she went missing from, see.
Video: Let me ask you some questions.
James Wilcox: The concentrated around the house, they stayed around there a long time.
Payne Lindsey: He was filming Tara's house from the road, just a few weeks after she went missing. There was crime tape surrounding the entire property, a "Come home soon" sign in the front yard and a deflated balloon waving in the wind, tied to the back of Tara's car. No one could have imagined that it would be more than a decade before they found anything.
Pageant Host: Tara Faye Grinstead, first question, what is your greatest fear in life?
Recording of Tara Grinstead: I really don't have a great fear in life. Whenever I have a hard time, whenever I feel like I'm down or I'm gonna stumble, I just pray and I know that the Lord's gonna see me through.
When I walked into my classroom, the very first class that I had, they wanted to start the class off by talking about, "Tell us what you're gonna do when you go to Miss Georgia." And I said, "We've got to do our lesson first." And so I gave my notes hoping that they would forget by the end of class, but the last 10 minutes of class they said, "You said we could talk about it if we got through with our work." So they were asking a lot of questions. Very curious.
Student of Tara: Sit in the classroom and the bell rings. We were waiting there 15 minutes. 20 minutes. Still no teacher. She wasn't even in the hallway. Usually the teachers stand right by the hallway. She didn't show up and then all of the sudden, we hear over the intercom, "Would Tara Grinstead report to the office." Then after that, everybody started freaking out and later that evening is when it popped up on the news that she was, that they were searching for her. She was happy. She had a very bubbly personality. She was a person who was not afraid to help you if you needed it. If you were struggling in school, in any subject, she would help you.
Tara Grinstead: I worked very hard and it took me awhile. I competed in 19 Miss Georgia preliminaries, and it took me four years, but I was determined that I was gonna reach my goal. And Miss Tifton was my second to the last pageant since 24 is the age limit and I was graciously titled Miss Tifton, and I'm very excited.
Maria Woods Harber: Tara was, even if she was hurting on the inside, on the outside she was happy, she was loving, she was a faithful friend. You know, she was energetic. She had a real passion for life. She had her own way of doing things. She had spontaneous thoughts, but she was such a good, well-rounded person. I mean I really have missed her friendship, you know, in every sense of the word because she's just one of those people that if you knew her you loved her. And if she met you, she loved you. I loved her as a teenager friend, but she was great as an adult friend, and those type of people are hard to find. She's a faithful Christian, she believed in prayer. She believed in having faith and hope. She used to forgive first.
I mean, like, she's one of those people that I am very thankful I had as an adult friend. A friend especially, because she's very rare. She was very, very rare. Her singing was not something that she did her whole life. As a matter of fact, she started pageant and learned that to do scholarship pageants, that you get scholarship money, you know, you have to have a talent. So she actually taught herself how to sing. She taught herself how to sing so well, like, she had to work for it. But she did not stop, she tried, tried, tried. She practiced all the time. She sang for her mom, she sang for me, anybody who would listen. Once a week we would go to the church and she would sing in the church. Just me and her or whoever and she would sing. And she developed confidence and she was amazing. I mean, she done great.
She was very critical of herself and she did have, you know, she did try to change things and fix things, and she had people listen to her that could help her. But she was so driven to learn a talent that would earn her some scholarships. She had that much motivation, that much willpower. She, unbelievable. Obviously there's that little piece of you that thinks, "Okay, like," you know, you pray that she's just gonna be somewhere. You know, she just wanted to get away. I knew that probably wasn't the case but, even when people are gone and they've got ... You have a little piece of them always there with you and it always gives you hope of things working out. I think that I always had that hope that we would find out or I would have some peace. So I've really never given up hope. It's some people would say, "Oh, you know, you probably never know."
Well, I always said you never know what's gonna happen. You know, you never know what somebody on their dying bed may tell. And I mean, since she disappeared, I've had to defend the whole situation. I've had to defend that I thought that it will be solved one day, I had to defend everything. And it gives me a little bit of a comfort knowing that there are good people in the world, who when something did happen and they did find out something, that they told. Now, whether it was the right way or whatever, I don't know. But it was told. If I ever watch a TV movie or a show on TV or a mystery, or Dateline or 20, whatever, anything like that, I always thought, "Okay, this situation could be Tara." You know, "It could have happened like this. Things could happen like that." And all it did was just completely drive me crazy because I didn't know. I really feel like it's been, I don't know, 12 long years of not knowing, not having any idea what had happened to her or if she was dead or alive.
I'm thankful to know now, did I wish it had happened sooner? Of course. I want to see remorse from people that had anything to do with it. The punishment, I definitely leave that up to God and the justice system, because to me, nothing they can do to them is gonna bring her back or fix the situation. I just pray every night that justice is served and one day when they, or whoever, have to meet their maker then it's them that's gonna have to answer to it. I just hope that if nothing else, they live with guilt for the rest of their lives that they can barely live with because we've had to live with guilt for not being there for her when it happened to save her. I've had to live with guilt just from people talking about her and the rumors and things like that. I mean, we're living with losing her and all the problems and all the feelings that went along with it and I want them to live with just as much hard feelings and guilt and struggle as I have.
Sometimes people look at this like it's a movie. This is not a movie. This is real life people. This is my own real life. I loved Tara so much and I feel like I've had to take up for her when she hasn't been able to take up for herself. Unless you've walked in this situation, unless you're in it and a main part of it, you have no idea how you would feel. At the beginning I knew that it was necessary to tell the GBI everything I knew and everything, whatever I knew about everybody. Now I felt like I betrayed Tara, you know? Because I had to open up and tell them everything, but at the end of the day, I had to go, "Okay, if this a matter of getting her back or finding out what happened to her or not, then it just is what it is." Now you know, I wish it was not all out in the whole world to know, but that's just the way things happened. And I don't think you can ask questions without knowing everything and having to tell secrets and having to reveal things that you didn't want to reveal.
It does sadden me that those people's lives were affected, but I think that they understand that that's just the way it had to happen, you know? You have to open up yourself. I think that's just the way it is when you put yourself in someone else's life, it could happen. Period. I'm really thankful for people for at least praying for her family and I just want positive thoughts now. I want positive feedback. I mean, let's just leave what's happened alone and just let this play out. I'm praying that it was one of those just burglaries gone wrong, you know, just a freak thing. Because let's see, I'm gonna be honest with you, I know she said she had no fears, but she did have a strong fear of being broken into and annihilated and I just pray that it very quick, whatever happened. I hope it was quick.
I mean, I think it's just one of those things that I'm trying real hard and praying real hard to accept the things that I do not know and just accept the fact that I may never know and just be able to live with it like that. It's been like reliving this all over again every single day. And when it all happened in 2005, it took months for me or years you know, really to get my life back to norm or back to the new normal, and it's been the same way. I mean I feel like I'm back to where I was trying to cope with this. It's just unreal. I felt like it was somebody she knew the whole time. But I guess that part of me was like, you know, I don't ... You know, nobody wants to think, "Oh I know someone who could actually kill somebody else. Or hurt somebody else or take them against their will."
And I guess I have a lot of guilt for thinking people that I did know may have something to do with it. But, luckily I don't know these two guys. I don't know the guys that did it really, I just know them by name and I'm glad because it's been, it's been very difficult. Obviously I have a lot of questions, but I don't know, I'm praying that it just all comes out and answers my questions.
Payne Lindsey: Tara was a happy person who inspired those around her. A devoted teacher, a loving daughter, and a best friend. As we learned in some of the previous episodes from some of the emails Tara sent to Marcus Harper's mom, Tara was a very passionate person and in the days and weeks leading up to her disappearance, she was experiencing her first heartbreak. She was emotionally torn about her split with Marcus Harper and she expressed that in many ways. Recently, I was given a never before seen letter that Tara sent Marcus shortly after they broke up.
Tara Voice Actor: In spite of all the hardships, I've learned a lifelong lesson. Marriage, something I should have never dwelt on. Of course, I would be happy having your name, but it's more important just to have you. I do not need your name to have you in my life. All I need is to act right or perhaps look at the situation differently. I should have just been happy having you in my life and now that I don't, I'm experiencing the most terrible pain in my heart. I am realizing that not having you in my life is worse than not being married. All this time I was trying to figure out what was wrong with me and why you would not marry me, when I should have just been happy being your chosen girl for six years.
But I did not know what it was like to have you and then lose you. I know now and I also know, I will not find anyone like you. I know we both struggled with other emotions such as job, finance, school, et cetera. But my insecurity got the best of me and you were down and concerned with those matters, I assumed it was me. Sure, I know I caused some additional stress on you, but it was just my plan for some answers in my life. Answers I thought you could verbally give me, when actually the answers lie within actions and time. Emotions are more important than words and I know what I feel, Marcus. I have a tremendous amount of love for you and an excruciating amount of pain from this broken heart.
Love can heal the pain we've both experienced. I'm willing to completely love you if you can meet me halfway. Let me prove to you, or rather, show you what I have learned about our relationship. It's not about our unity in marriage, but it's about our unity as two people who love each other. Yes, I know you're saying, "Why didn't you see that before?" I just did not. Now I do. My devotion to you runs deep, as you know, and I want to show you a new devotion. It's not just about waiting while you're gone and doing for you, it's about me learning to trust that you love me.
I was always scared you did not love me like I loved you and when you went out with friends, I thought it was because you were falling out of love. Forgive me wanting to spend time with you, because you know I have spent plenty of time alone, but I can surely see your free time away from me in a different light. Life is about learning Marcus and please do not hold a grudge against me for the past three years. None of this was meant to hurt you or me. But in a time of emotional confusion, I hit rock bottom only to see darkness. It took this time for me to learn what the past six years was more about. It's more about just us being a couple. Thank God I see that now and I pray to God that you will always give me a chance to prove what I see. It will be better for the both of us.
Payne Lindsey: I tried reaching out to Marcus several times throughout my investigation but I never got a response. But three days after Ryan Duke's arrest, back in February, I received a Facebook message from him. He said, "I'm ready to talk now, are you?" I was driving back to Atlanta from Ocilla at the time and I got off on the first exit I saw and pulled into a little coffee shop. He asked if he could call me and he did. In the first few minutes, we had a sort of burying the hatchet moment. He expressed his distaste for some of the earlier episodes of Up and Vanished, but then he told me that he understood my role and as hard as it was for him to hear it, he knew why it had to be done; and that I wasn't the first person to question him in Tara's disappearance.
I asked if I could meet him in person and he said he would do it, but only if I met him in New York City and coincidentally, I was going to New York just three days later. So we arranged a meeting. Marcus and I talked for hours at a restaurant off-record. After an emotional couple of hours, we parted ways and we continued our communication on a regular basis over the next six months, and just a few days ago, per my own request, he agreed to give me an official statement. We met again, this time at my office in Atlanta.
Marcus Harper: How do I describe almost 12 years of pain in one statement? I can't. The only thing I can do is admit that I was wrong about my assumptions and what happened to Tara. I always said I would not believe her to be dead until proven otherwise. February 23, 2017 changed that for me, after receiving the call from law enforcement. The voice on the other end of my phone, which I recognized, told me my years of pain were over. Are they? Hope was gone, but people will always judge, criticize and scrutinize. It did not feel real then, just like it does not feel real now. My pain is nothing compared to what her family is experiencing.
Tara was robbed of her dreams, loved ones and of life. All of those were cut short. For what reason? Her parents were robbed of their daughter. I can not imagine the pain her father and stepmother are feeling. Her mother passed away without knowing what happened. She is grieved by many friends and family who have all had the same question. Why? For 12 years, everyone close to this case was forced to endure their own personal hell. Some turned on each other, while some became closer because of the trials and tribulations. The fires of Hell itself is not enough for the ones responsible.
Tara and I had a relationship, it ended as many do. Sometimes people come into our lives for a season, sometimes for much longer. But these people come into our lives for a reason. We learn from them, they help us grow. And Tara did just that. She supported me during one of the most trying times of my life, the path to the 75th Ranger Regiment. On a blistering summer day, she pinned on my coveted Ranger tab at Victory Pond in Fort Benning. She was there when I first left to go to war and greeted me with my family upon my return. She helped fuel my ambition. In turn, it was that ambition that caused strain in our relationship.
Months upon months of deployments and the fact that I did not want to move back to my hometown, settle down and start a family, caused us to take different roads. We had our differences. We tried to maintain a friendship, but that is difficult to do when two people have been in love. I never got to finish the story when we last spoke. Maybe I will share one day. Despite all, I will say we parted on good terms and I have peace. We have a justice system at work. No matter how flawed, it has to be given a chance. All we can do is remain patient and pray that justice is served.
Payne Lindsey: The support this podcast has received from all the listeners and the community itself has been astounding. People from all over tuned in to hear Tara Grinstead's story and we've all rallied together in support for justice and truth. I could dedicate an entire episode to thanking all the different people for their help and support throughout this whole journey. But right now, I want to take a second to thank one particular person who was here from the very beginning.
Grandma Lindsey: Hey Payne, how are you?
Payne Lindsey: I'm good, how you doing?
Grandma Lindsey: Fine. I was getting my hair fixed, I was sitting underneath the hairdryer. I thought, "I better not get out from under this because that operator, she have someone coming right after me."
Payne Lindsey: My grandma.
Speaker 15: You probably got that GPS thing, haven't you? Whatever it's called, you can get here?
Payne Lindsey: Yes, I can get there.
Most of my previous conversations with my grandma had been about how proud of me she was, or how many cowboy cookies she needed to make for me, or someone, or anyone for that matter, but I had never really sat down with her to discuss the case. After all, she only lives 15 minutes from Ocilla and her best friend Melba was at the beauty pageant and talked to Tara on the night she went missing. I sat down to talk with her, to have a real conversation about things, and the first thing she said was:
Grandma Lindsey: I'll just have to brag on my grandson here. You really got it going again. I think it would still be a cold case had you not gotten involved with this podcast. I really do. I think everybody's happy how it's turned out and it would be wonderful if it could be some closure to it. I know those parents have had to go through an awful lot, hearing all of this and everything. Every time I listen to one of your podcasts, something new has come up. I can't believe that so many people have been involved in this thing.
Payne Lindsey: How can a small town keep a secret like that?
Grandma Lindsey: It's easy. They don't always welcome outsiders. Small towns, you know? It's the same way when I moved to Albany. Oh gosh, that's been since 1952, I mean, the people that lived right in Albany, they're sort of a clique you know. And they just support each other. It's, I don't think it's hard to do. It's just unreal to me, how, for that many years that many people who knew something, would not come forward. It's just unreal. I mean, I think this could have been solved a long time ago, had people talked, but they're very careful who they talked with and I think it's like that in most small little southern towns.
Payne Lindsey: Since the podcast, everyone's been talking and you have friends that you talk to and see. They clearly know that I'm your grandson, right?
Grandma Lindsey: My age group, they don't know even what a podcast is.
Payne Lindsey: Well, you do.
Grandma Lindsey: I do. I try to tell them and I'm bragging. Now, Melba, I think she's talking about it now, you know.
Payne Lindsey: Yeah.
Grandma Lindsey: A good bit.
Payne Lindsey: Well, you're hip now. You've got an iPhone.
Grandma Lindsey: Yes. I have. I mean, I think people are all shocked that this has gone on for this long. Seems like everybody is willing to talk now.
Payne Lindsey: Yeah. At first, they weren't, but now it's like all the cards are out on the table. People feel like they have less to lose now.
Grandma Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think I heard it was day before yesterday, I think, we was on the WLB news about Bo Dukes, he's been arraigned now, is that right?
Payne Lindsey: Yeah, he's been indicted now.
Grandma Lindsey: He's been indicted, okay.
Payne Lindsey: Yep.
Grandma Lindsey: I think when maybe it first happened, a lot of people were pointing a finger at one another. You know? Wonder if he's involved, or wonder, you know? And I-
Payne Lindsey: Yeah, at first it was the boyfriend.
Grandma Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Payne Lindsey: Marcus Harper, and then the cop from the other town, Heath Dykes.
Grandma Lindsey: I think that everyone would like for it to come to an end and for Ocilla to be remembered for other things other than Tara Grinstead. A horrible murder, you know? Of course, it is a sweet little town. Like, I used to shop there when I first moved to Tifton?
Payne Lindsey: Uh huh.
Grandma Lindsey: I used to go to Ocilla. I don't think it's there anymore.
Payne Lindsey: What'd you shop for in Ocilla?
Grandma Lindsey: It was a cute little dress shop, it was called Diane's.
Payne Lindsey: Okay.
Grandma Lindsey: I never went in there that I didn't buy something. I always came out with something.
Payne Lindsey: What do you think we all should learn from this? If you've been listening to this since day one, if you are a member of the community in south Georgia, Ocilla, Tifton, this area, and you've heard this story, and we've all witnessed this stuff unfold.
Grandma Lindsey: Never give up. Just keep on. Just open every door you possibly can. Make every phone you possibly can. Just to keep on going. That's what you did. Everybody has to be investigated. I mean, anybody that had anything to do with it. I mean, the sheriff, the police and her friends, schoolmates, her teachers, everyone needed to be interviewed. I mean, that's you've gotten as far as you have right now. I got in the car, I called Fran, I said, "How do you get to Ocilla from where I live?" She told me because I've been there but I've gone a long ways. She told me a back way to go. You know, so, I was there and I called Melba and she met me and it was just so exciting to see all that.
I hadn't been in a courtroom in a long time. The only time I went is because somebody ran into me and I was scared to death, but that was really, gosh, I thought I was in a ... Watching a movie or something. With all the reporters and all the cameras. Then when I saw her family come out, that had to be hard, you know? Stepmother and father walked out from the chambers. She looked up and Melba threw her a kiss. She threw a kiss back to Melba. So Melba knows about everybody, I think.
Payne Lindsey: Yeah.
Grandma Lindsey: In Ocilla, because she been there a long time.
Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Grandma Lindsey: She's a lovely lady, she really is. I'm hoping it'll end soon, I really thought after they arrested him, he would really come out and confess that he did it. I never, the idea of him going to rob her, you know? Of what? She's a school teacher. Small little house, you know? I mean, I always felt from the very beginning that he was a person that maybe had a crush on her for a long time.
Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Grandma Lindsey: Being a nice person, she just spoke with him and he just might've taken it the wrong way.
Payne Lindsey: Yeah.
Grandma Lindsey: I think his intent that night was not to rob anything.
Payne Lindsey: Yeah.
Grandma Lindsey: I think he had a crush on her, maybe for a long time. She just refused and I think he killed her. I mean, I've always felt like that. But that's just my opinion, who am I to know? I don't understand if he did it, why he just won't admit? I mean he knows he's not going to ever walk the streets again. How he could walk around and Bo Dukes too, every day in that little town and know what you have done for all those years, I don't know how someone can live with that. He was pathetic walking into that courtroom that day. Walking up those steps. Ooh. He held his head down the whole time. Maybe he raised a little bit when they asked if he needed a lawyer.
I hope it'll soon end. I just imagine when the family appeared in court that day, I mean, how sad it was, but a relief to know that she was dead. I mean, if that something like happened to any of my family, or anyone, I wouldn't have one minute of peace every day. I don't know how strong I am. I don't know if I could survive it, but I would do everything I possibly could. It would never be a cold case. I'd be there every day at the sheriff's office or somewhere, asking, "What are you doing? What are you doing?" At least I'd be on that telephone. Everybody I know if I have something to break in this house. I'm right away to get it fixed. So, and I hope they do have a little, little peace knowing that she is not coming home, you know?
Payne Lindsey: Exactly.
Grandma Lindsey: To lose a child like that has to be the worst thing in the world. You keep hanging in there with it.
Payne Lindsey: I will. I love you.
Grandma Lindsey: Love you too. I think they might have both been in it from the very beginning together. I do.
Payne Lindsey: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Grandma Lindsey: I've always felt like that. You know, since he came forward. I felt like he was in it from the very beginning. Very first day. In fact, the night, the night that it happened. That's just my opinion of course.